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Hey, Christina, welcome to the podcast. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for being here. You are in Colorado, correct? That's right. What's the weather like today? We have some snow on the ground, but it's still pretty sunny, which is typical for a Colorado winter. Yeah, it's, it's just gray and ugly here today in New York, and cold. So cold. Yeah. I don't miss that. I know. Yeah. So why don't you tell everyone what you do and we'll jump into your story of how you came to do that. Yeah, absolutely. So I am Christina Skandar. I'm the co-founder at Nurture Productivity, where we build custom systems in tools like Clickup and HubSpot to help businesses streamline their operations and really bring calm to the chaos that can be business ownership. Oh, there's no chaos. Come on. I was looking for a little less chaos in my own business. And then through divine, you know, timing, met Christina and your, uh, marketing book, I guess had your beautiful little, your little hash brown dog as your head barker, and I had to interview you. So that's kind of how we started and, and definitely my life has been. I mean, as a female entrepreneur, trying to run a household and a family and everything else and write a book and start a second business and do all these things, you've been such a blessing in my life. Thank you. And likewise. So, yeah. So you started out and you hadn't had nurture yet, or you were just thinking about starting something like that. Can you tell it, let's backtrack to, you were in New York, you were working, and what was the catalyst to get you to make a different choice? Yeah, so like we mentioned, um, I'm out in Colorado now, but I actually was born and raised on Long Island in New York and started my career there. Um, so I kind of started out near really traditional. Big corporation, like standard product marketing role. That really built my marketing foundation. And then from there I really fell in love with the digital part of marketing. I just thought it was so cool that you could amplify these brand messages across the world through these digital channels. So that inspired me to pivot into agency life, and that was so much fun. Um, you know, I got to work for a full service digital marketing agency and got to touch so many different pieces of digital marketing strategy, all different industries, and had the opportunity to work with a lot of wonderful, wonderful, uh, people there. And then fast forward a little bit and COVID hit. So the silver lining, if you could say that for my husband and I was that both of us went remote. So we kind of had this conversation of, okay, both of us are working remotely now. If we had the opportunity to live anywhere, where would we wanna go? And we pulled up this big map of the United States in our little condo and patch hog and like casted it up to the TV and literally went around pointing to all the different states that we would consider, and we landed on Colorado. It has just been an absolute transformation in all aspects of business and lifestyle. So when we first came out here, we were both still working for our corporate jobs, and then you fast forward. Probably a year in maybe. Um, I got really sick. Yeah. So I was always kind of struggling with health throughout my life and it really ramped up when we got to Colorado. So it eventually came to a point where in order to pursue a diagnosis on really kind of aggressively go to doctor's appointments and tests and just be able to prioritize my health, I decided to leave my corporate job and start freelancing full-time. So in the beginning it was definitely a really hard balance. Yeah. I was probably going to doctor appointments on a good week, probably a full eight hours. I was probably losing a full day of work to just kind of pursuing my health and finding out what was going on and what was wrong so I could start to feel better again. And um, I think that's probably right around when we met, because I was, yeah, just dabbling. I hadn't LLC yet. I nurture was not even a thought in my mind, you know, coming from. A full service background. I was kind of just doing a little bit of everything, which looking back on it, um, it's actually something that, it's advice that I give entrepreneurs that are starting out, can't be everything to everyone. And that's really the first big lesson that I learned is that I don't, I don't wanna do every single piece of digital marketing for every single industry and as one person, as, you know, like when you're in that kind of solopreneur life, especially, it's impossible to stay an expert in every single facet of marketing. Right. Yeah. I do think that, you know, even like looking back at my trajectory there, you know, you don't even really kind of know what you're gonna wanna want to do, like, or niche into. Until you try them. So, you know what I love that you did is you sort of took that time to do different things and then over mm-hmm. Time decide, well that isn't fun. You know, move into the things that you really, really did love.'cause one of the things that I saw, I mean, you were just, you're so organized and you understood this technology. You and I started with Clickup and mm-hmm. It just blew my mind how it was just so simple for you to take these very complex systems that needed to be created inside of this platform and you just, you just seem to get it. It was, it was really interesting to see somebody process something that's a little more complicated, especially techno having to do with technology for the average entrepreneur, it's um, like looking at Greek. So, yes, I totally understand that. And it's, you know, it's funny, when I look back on my career, I've always been involved in like systems, project management. CRMs, but I just never really thought of it as something that I could niche into in a, in a service way. So I remember very vividly, you know, us having this conversation about Clickup and you posed the question to me like, Christina, why don't you sell this? And, you know, I was, I was dabbling a little bit in helping a few other people set up their click up and HubSpots and things like that. And it was that, that light bulb moment for me of like, oh my goodness, I could sell this. And I love doing this. And it does come very easily to me. And, you know, with all of the different industries and types of clients that I've touched throughout my career, I had a really good understanding of what these systems needed to be and how I could ultimately help all these clients kind of avoid that mishap that I had when, you know, I was aggressively pursuing corporate and trying to climb the corporate ladder and kind of shoving everything else aside, including my health in order to get there. And there's systems and tools and processes where you can get to that end goal without having to go through that kind of, whether it be a health issue or just feeling burnt out. I mean, I know many entrepreneurs and just corporate folks alike who have experienced burnout, and there's just other ways to do it where I think that people can lead such a happier, more integrated work life balance. Leveraging tools like, like Clickup and HubSpot and things like that. Absolutely. I mean, the automations that you built are, I mean, they changed my life. Um. And I think, you know, if you look at it, what you're building is the system and framework for anyone to live a better life. Yes. Because, you know, looking at you coming from New York, going to Colorado, I mean, everything was based on how do I wanna feel? Mm-hmm. What's important to me? How do I wanna live? And making the choices and taking the actions to do that. Um, and even in your business, you provide that for other, other entrepreneurs too. It's, it's, um, it's like a beautiful service at the same time as a business. Thank you for that. It is just my favorite thing to do is just help people kind of regain that, that feeling of clarity. And I really love to just be a breath of fresh air for my clients. I understand. As you do, you know, living in New York and kind of embodying that quote unquote hustle culture. Yeah. That is just ingrained in us from the time that we go to college, we graduate, getting our first job, like I said, climbing that corporate ladder just to, you know, survive. Yeah, because that's, that's what the lifestyle is. Well, that's what we're told it is. That's right. That's what we're told it is. And that's what we kind of blindly go down. And I think it's difficult sometimes to take a step outside of that and realize that there is just. Another way to go about it and to be able to integrate your personal beliefs and values. Something I talk about a lot too is value alignment. Mm-hmm. And value alignment across so many different facets. You know, your values need to be embedded in your systems and your client relationships, your personal life, your business life. I mean, the values I hold and post on our website on nurture are the same values that I hold in my personal life and how I, how I act in my personal life. Yeah. And I think when you, when you really find that alignment, that's, that's when the magic happens. That's when you really start to, to feel that deep clarity and calm in your all aspects of your life. Absolutely. You know that I live and die by, you know, being able to fill all the buckets in your life, paying attention to all the pillars that you need to pay attention to, to feel your best and live your best. And business is. Just another part of your life. I don't, you know, people always say like, work life balance, and I don't really think that's a thing. I think it's much more of a give and take and then like a flow into and out of mm-hmm. The certain areas, because you need to consider how you wanna work if you're kind of reshaping your life. Like, not to say that, you know, COVID was such a difficult time for so many different reasons, but I do think it gave people an opportunity to kind of look and see and like prove their theory that actually we can live a different way and we don't have to do, you know, I, I mean, I was in the city like three or four times a week. I have a family with little kids. Like I was in Jersey, I was all over the place. And then after all that stopped, I was like, oh. I didn't, you know, my business didn't implode. Everything was okay. And I was so much happier just being home with them. And I felt like I could be what I needed to be for all the people in my life, for all the roles that I play. So, you know, I think just what you do so beautifully, and I know we both feel the same way, is, is building your life around your career instead of the opposite way. Yes. Um, it's almost like instead of work-life balance, it's like a work-life integration almost fusion, yay. Yeah, fusion. I like that word. Um, 'cause it's, it does ebb and flow. I mean, when I think about just how I live my personal life, you know, mark and I love to hike. We love to hike, we love to camp, and we love to backpack. So I definitely work the most kind of consecutive days. I don't wanna say no days off, but minimal PTO during the winter time when we can't do that. And then in the summer is really when I take all of my time off because that's when. I'm able to pursue all of the things that I love seasonally. Yeah, and that's just one small example of how you can adapt, you know, your work life to your personal life, and again, have those shared values and they don't need to compete with each other. No. You can fuse them together and it can ebb and flow. I mean, I think back to last year when Mark and I got married and went on our honeymoon and we had an in addition to that, three of our best friends got married. We were in all of their bridal parties. We went to bachelorette parties and bachelor parties, and I was able to prioritize all of those events and friendships and relationships and still get everything done that I needed to do in my business by leveraging those types of tools and processes and things that, you know, we've been chatting through here and giving myself the visibility into what's going on in my business at a glance, which is something we've built for moca as well. You know, you can log into Clickup at any given moment and phone kind to see, yeah. From your phone. Getting my hair done, I'm, what do I have to do today? Yep. And you can project your workload out. You can see, oh, I have, you know, a light work in, you know, a light work week in two weeks, so maybe that's when I wanna get my hair done or get my nails done. And you are entitled to those things. I think that that's something we lose a little bit sometimes, uh, being entrepreneurs because, you know, it's a lot and I don't wanna diminish that. It's a lot and I think that something that Mark and I really prioritize is among. All of the hard work. It's so important to celebrate your wins. You know, every time we land a big contract or I wrap up a really big HubSpot build or a Clickup build, you know, something that we love is we love to go out to dinner. We are big foodies, so we'll go out to our favorite restaurant and celebrate and, you know, get ourselves like a nice sweet treat on the way home. And, you know, I always recommend to people to, to really just take, take the time to celebrate yourself or your team or your successes and whatever those look like as you're going through this journey, because it goes so fast. And sometimes I feel like I am just like a train going a million miles an hour with our business. And it's, it's, it's really important to, to take a breath sometimes and, and recognize yourself and how far you've come and all of the things. I mean, like we've talked about coming from New York, living out in Colorado, I mean, we are absolutely living our dream life out here and I could not be more grateful for the opportunities that. We've created for ourselves to, to build that life here. Yeah. Well I think a lot of people don't think it's real like that. It's a possibility for them. Mm-hmm. Like, oh, I see this person doing it, but I couldn't possibly, and I think, you know, highlighting stories like yours, like you absolutely could, you know, I mean, you've done even better than you did when you were in corporate. That's right. Something we are really proud of actually with Nurture after we. Officially Lll seeded, uh, my first year in business, I actually matched my corporate salary from when I left. We have continued to have really wonderful growth over the last few years. Um, the following year we still saw a significant growth in our revenue and that was actually the year I mentioned when we got married, all of our friends got married. And Kendra, I probably took two months off all in. I mean, that's incredible. Yeah. And then, um, we just recently ran our numbers for our revenue this year and we've grown actually another roughly 55%. So I've actually now doubled what my corporate salary was when I left us a few years ago. And people, you know, what do you think the, the formula was for that? Like if you had to tell someone like, here's, you know, what I did if they wanted to see a case study? Hmm. Well, I think, I think it's a few different things. And one thing we touched on a little bit was actually experimenting in the beginning of my journey and doing a little bit of everything for everyone and kind of uncovering that lesson of, okay, what do I really want to do? Yeah. Before I launched my business. Because I think if I would've launched my business right away and gone full service, digital marketing, I would have been rebranding 10 months later and I would've been right back to square one. And I think, you know, you've probably seen too, a lot of people will jump to, I need a website, I need instantly, you know, all of all, all the things. Yeah. And I had that. That little pitch deck with Hash brown in it. And that's what I was choosing because it was something that I made on Canva that I really just put myself, my personality and my skills and all of the, you know, metrics and whatnot that I could stand by. And I used that pitch deck for almost a year until, until we actually launched the Nurture Brand, which actually, you know, mocha did my branding. So we are always grateful for the beautiful, beautiful brand and logo that I love your brand y'all have created for us. We've had so much fun with it. I think that that's one piece of it is give yourself the opportunity to experiment and see what you really like before you go all in on the brand and the website and all of the things that, um, you know, do cost, time, resources, things like that. Uh, we stay really, really lean as a company and I know that's something that you do at moca as well. Um, you know, we don't have a big fancy office. Um, I don't travel, I don't go to conferences and things like that or go on luxurious trips or anything like that. Um, we have, you know, the biggest expense I've probably had is my laptop. Yeah, and you know, I, I would recommend to everyone stay as lean as you can, as long as you can, because there's also, you talk about revenue, but revenue, it's really profitability. That is the metric that that matters. You know, revenue in one case matters and in a sense, matters. But what you're taking home from that is a true, true lesson that I tell all of my clients and that I would urge to all, you know, up and coming entrepreneurs, you need to watch your profitability. That is the important piece of it, because say we're making a million dollars, but my expenses are 2 million, right? I'm not, I'm not actually making any money, but say my revenue is. And I, my expenses are $20,000. I'm actually making more money in that scenario. Yeah. And that's a, it's a really hard thing to wrap your head around sometimes. Um, and to really understand as an entrepreneur, uh, you know, when you're first starting out.'cause every, everyone's like revenue, revenue and it's just not always. It's not never the right thing to be focusing on, but it's not always the right thing to be focusing on. Yeah. I'm, I'm a big believer in profitability. Yeah. I mean, there's so many layers to it too. Like, I know when I first started out, I thought it had to look like a certain thing, so I was definitely spending way more money on, you know, more impressive office when like, in reality, nobody ever came to my office. So like, what was I doing? I had a conference room, like I would sit there with my team, but like mm-hmm. You know, what was I doing? And then once COVID hit and we let the office space go, I was so much happier working. Mm-hmm. Working from a home office, which it, I mean, it, I do think back when I was originally working home office, like that sort of setup wasn't as favorably accepted. Yeah. Working with larger corporate clients now nobody cares. I mean, CEOs went from their living rooms all the time. I people work from their couches sometimes. Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm an office girly. I need my, my specific space and my two screens. Yeah, yeah. But power to you if you can work from the couch. Yeah. But I, I do, I think there's like a thing that, you know, what looks good from the outside doesn't make your business necessarily profitable. Right. I think it was actually, um, a profitability workshop that we did with Kristen. Yes. Thank you, RO Yeah. And she said something that stuck with me so much. She said, do you want to look like a business or act like a business? And that's, that's a very powerful statement because it's very easy to get caught up in the kind of external perception or external validation that comes with owning a business. But especially nowadays, like you said, nobody cares that you're working from your kitchen, your office, anything like that. Even your website, like if you are getting clients and you're landing business, like, I was just talking to a fairly new entrepreneur the other day and she, she's doing great. And she's like, I, I think I should rebrand. I think I should. And she's only been in business like officially, maybe a couple months. Wow. She's like, but that's what I just started out with. And I, and I wanna, and I was like, well, I mean, your landing clients, your website's doing its job. Mm-hmm. Like, why don't you just sit where you are Right for a minute and work on, you know, that profitability part and bringing in more, more clients and not worry about funneling money into something that isn't broken. Yeah. And that actually kind of brings me to a good next point of, you know, after you, you kind of do that initial finding your niche and whether that niche be industry or whether that niche be a software, whatever that niche is. Keep experimenting. Yeah, I would keep, keep, you know, taking on HubSpot builds, you know, in my case, HubSpot builds in different industries, taking on different hubs, taking on clickup, builds in all kinds types of industries and keep iterating, keep improving. You know, we're at a place now where, you know, where a few years into nurture now, and we're actually reevaluating all of our packages that we offer. So I've been, as you know. Excuse me. Very, very custom. Very, very, very custom, which we'll be to an extent now, but as I've gotten all of these different builds under my belt, I'm seeing what's working. I'm seeing ways to streamline. Now we're in a place where we're like, okay, let's reorganize all of our packages. Let's, let's update the pricing on our website. Let's, let's get a more streamlined onboarding, you know, build and then offboarding process. How do we now take all of these projects and turn them into recurring revenue, like retainers? So now you kind of go in these phases of, you know, first you're figuring out what you like and what you're good at. Then you're, you're launching that. Then you're, you're still figuring out really what you like at an even deeper level, and then you're tailoring your packages to that. So it never really, I guess what I would encourage people is it never really stops. Like the iteration, the improvements, it, it shouldn't stop. Right? And you should keep. Fine tuning your, your services. You figure out what you like, what you don't like, and you, you know, that also might change. Yeah. Because you're gonna change. Yeah. And as your experience changes, as your lifestyle changes, you know, you may love doing something right now and five years from now you're like, this really doesn't gimme joy anymore. And the beauty in owning a business is you can just stop offering it. Yeah, absolutely. We did. I mean, we were really heavily focused on websites for a long time and then, right. The profitability of it was the major problem because the project scopes just kept blowing out completely. And it was, it was a very challenging thing to keep them within scope. And so it got to the point where it was just, it was being so difficult to manage. I just really, every time we got one, I was like, Ugh. Right. And you should never feel that way in your business. That's true. You should never look at your day and be like. That is absolutely correct. Yeah. We don't, we don't advertise. We do, we still do them. You know, when the right job comes along, and I know it'll be a win, but I do not do the advertise that I do them anymore. So, yeah, I think not, and, and that was like looking at it from an outside perspective, that was a big change for, you know, a company that was so focused on that. Mm-hmm. And talked about that so much for years to all of a sudden just pull the plug on it. If I had really thought about what the perception or the judgment would've been, I probably would've maybe held or hemmed and hawed over it a little bit more, but mm-hmm. I was also 20 years in, so I don't really hem and haw about making big shifts like that. I don't really care what anyone thinks anymore. And I think that could also be after 40, you just don't really give a shit anymore. I think it's as you, as you go through your kind of entrepreneurial journey too, I feel like you get some thick skin with stuff like that. Yeah. And you know what's best for you. And it doesn't really matter what someone else thinks, because like, they don't know who, how you are living, how you're feeling. I mean, Michael and I were just looking at our finances the other day, and in seven years we're gonna be finished paying our mortgage. Congratulations. I was like, yeah, thank you. And I was like, um, so we won't have any kids in college at that point. We mm-hmm. May or may not have any people, other extraneous people in our house. You know, our expenses will be a lot less. He's looking at a pretty large move in his career. So, you know, I'm already starting to pull back from my business because I just, I feel like I'm moving in different directions, so I'm sort of giving myself the space to explore that. I couldn't do that if I had a nine to five job. Like it's. And I'm not afraid to do that either. I mean, I had mm-hmm. You know, a brand that we were running with for two years and it just, it didn't feel right at, at one point, and I was like, you know what? We're done. So, mm-hmm. We pivoted that and I feel really good about where that is, but that's not to say that that's not gonna change, you know, in a year. Who knows? Right. So I think just having that idea or that mindset that, like, I know I'm always gonna have some sort of profitable plan, whether that be this business or another business, but I'm also always gonna make sure that it's something that brings me joy and lights me up and that I love doing. Otherwise, I'm just not gonna do it anymore. Absolutely agree. And I couldn't agree more for any of your clients or my clients out there that it really, it should bring you joy and, and you can do it. You can have that, like you said, profitable business that brings you joy. You can create those different, you know, guardrails essentially in your business where, yeah, you're not taking on websites anymore because it's not profitable and you don't like it and it doesn't bring you joy. And you can have the kind of ability to just make those shifts. And I think freeing yourself also from external perception is. A really good one too. I mean, when I think back, and we've definitely talked about this, way back when I was launching Nurture, I was terrified to post on LinkedIn and I, let's ever wind so many people. Yeah. And they say the same thing. They're like, I'm terrified to post on social media. I'm terrified to put myself out there. All these people are gonna be looking at my posts and judging my posts. First of all, they're not looking. No, they're not looking. They're, and if they're, they're probably like totally jealous. Like, how did she do that? Or they're looking in some people that I thought would be judging are the ones liking my posts and supporting me. Yeah, totally celebrating you. Yeah. Yes. And you know, I look back on that now and that was just a few years ago when I was so nervous to do that. And now we're working on, you know, a LinkedIn strategy for next year and I've totally like gotten over the fear of posting on LinkedIn. But those are the kinds of things that, you know. You go through as you're, you're launching your business and as you're really honing in and really growing confidence in yourself too. And as you do more, whatever your service is, you know, you take on more clients, you do more VIP days, you do more builds, more websites, more brands, whatever it is, you just become more and more comfortable in what you're doing and more confident in what you're doing. And you're gaining more and more and more technical ability too. Right? Yeah. I think one of the things to always keep in mind too is like, especially when you're starting out, you have very little confidence probably'cause you just kind of flying blind. But you know, one thing to remember is like your skillset and whatever it is, your services that you're offering holds value to the person that you're offering it to. Yes. So making sure that you're pricing, pricing yourself appropriately. And if you are not landing accounts, you might be targeting the wrong type of client. So. When I was starting out, I was working with a lot of really small local businesses and it got to the point where I realized like I, my project price, my hourly rate had to go up. I wasn't making any money. Mm-hmm. And they couldn't afford it. So I was no longer gonna target that type of client. And I shifted to larger, like midsize corporate that changed everything. I could work for these clients who understood my value, had no problem paying for it, and I was actually working less and making a lot more. So, you know, that's another thing to think about, like spinning your wheels for very, very small paying jobs. When you're really looking at the time you're spending, are they profitable? Yeah. And especially, you know, I'm a team of one and a half, you know, so when I look at where I'm spending my time, what my hourly rate is, it's vital. It's critical to my business and to how I'm pricing everything. You know, I'm extremely. Transparent with my pricing. I believe in radical transparency. And when it comes to any types of quotes projects, I'm very simply taking my hourly rate and multiplying the hours that the project is gonna take me. There's no, you know, smoke and mirrors there. Yeah. I'm just trying to create a project price where I'm compensated for my time. It's, it's never anything beyond that. And it's so hard in the beginning. It's so hard to charge what you're worth. And it's scary.'cause people will say like, oh, I can't afford that. Sure. And it's like, you wanna offer them something, but you don't have to. Like, that's not your job. And I had a very similar experience too. You know, you start out, and I think it happens to a lot of entrepreneurs, you wanna help other entrepreneurs. Yeah. Because you're like, oh, I wanna help you. I'm in the same spot as you. But you know, same thing with nurture. Like, I bootstrapped, nurture, you know, I didn't have outside funding. Right. Fairly funded it myself, like I said, we're, we are extremely lean. We really don't have a lot of expenses and I was helping other entrepreneurs, but as my hourly rate was increasing to just be on par with market value. And you know, as my technical skills were continuing to increase and I was having more and more technical experience and builds were becoming more technical, my hourly rate was increasing accordingly. And I did also notice, actually the same exact thing where I started to get priced out of this initial market that I thought I wanted to serve. And as I started to take on, you know, a different market and those mid-size businesses, they had the budget. To be able to, you know, get those maybe instead of marketing starter hub, they're getting pro or enterprise where it unlocks all of the customizations and automations and really allows me to build the system that that business needs. And that's not to say, you know, a smaller business, they don't need all the bells and whistles all the time and that's totally okay too. And there are people who will serve that market. And that's also something I talk to a lot of my clients and other entrepreneurs about Someone else will fill that void. There's, yeah, there's so many agencies and consultants out there that some of them are, that, you know, low ticket cost, high volume clients, that's not me. I am very, and don't feel guilty about that, right? Like I am very white glove service. I am very involved. I really, really care about every single one of my clients. I know every single one of my clients very personally, I know their businesses very personally, their processes. I'm the one who's involved in doing your build. You're not gonna, you know, meet me on a sales call and then have x, y, Z person, you know, on the calls with you or doing your builds. I, I do all of it from start to finish. I'm all of the account management, project management, technical execution strategy, and that's a different type of service. And it's okay if you come across someone and that doesn't fit. You know, there is so much power in saying no. Yeah. Which that's crazy, but there's a lot of power in saying no. And people ask me all the time, you know, sometimes there was multiple situations where, multiple times where I wasn't taking on new clients and people would be like, what do you mean you're not taking on new clients or new projects? You have to take on clients to grow, but not necessarily, I have a wonderful core kind of recurring retainer style client group where I often upsell within that. Yeah. And I tell people all the time, upselling your current clients. Is the best case scenario, the best case scenario, it's more profitable, it's easier, it's less stressful. And you know that person, you know what they need. You've already adapted, you've already maybe built a system for them and you know, if you built the system, you're likely gonna be the fastest and most, you know, uh, appropriate person to optimize that system. Not to say like, I don't hop in and optimize systems sometimes that I didn't build 'cause that's a whole other service, you know, but most of the time I'm hopping in and helping clients whose systems I have built in the past. Yeah. But you know, theres's a great point. Yeah. There's a lot of power in just sticking with the right fit and sticking with the right person and or, you know, business rather sticking to those value alignments. Yeah. They're really, really important and they're a really great way to qualify. Projects and, and clients as they're coming in. Mm-hmm. I've, I've, yeah, that, and that's, I think that's such a hard one to do too because mm-hmm. When you, you know, everything fits, but like the personality and like the mm-hmm. You know, you just kind of get like this icky kind of feeling. You're not sure what it is. Like, it's not really tangible. That's a hard one to follow. But in the end, I've experienced so many times that what it is is a misalignment with values. Yes. And while I'm getting paid, it just was never worth it. It, I mean, the amount of stress and anxiety and just what was coming back from the other side was not worth it. Not at all. So it's something that I, like I said, it's not a tangible thing that you could say, like, you know, if it's this and that, like, or you could think, look at them like red flags. I call red flag clients all the time. Yes. Like, all right, that's, that's five red flags. Like, I'm not even gonna take this call. Yep. And I think there's also, you know, there's trust in your gut, which your gut is powerful, especially as you, you know, you've been in business 20 plus years. Mm-hmm. You know, you know when there's a red flag client, you know, innately that this isn't gonna be a good fit. And there's also the kind of a conversation you have with yourself where you're like, maybe you really even really like the person you really love their business and their mission. And you're like, what they're asking is really a little bit outside of what I do, but I could do it. I could don't do that, but don't do that because I've definitely found myself in that situation. A little more often than I'd like to say. And it's something that it's slippery, you know, it's, it's hard and it's something that you really need to stay in your lane. And especially coming from, you know, previously I wasn't a full service background and some of my clients even know me from my full service background. So there's things that I could advise on at a high level. But, you know, even when I start to get into the nitty gritty a little bit, I kind of remind myself and my clients that I really don't consider myself an expert in full services anymore in that sense.'cause it's been a few years now since I've been really full in systems. Uh, so, you know, I, I just, again, I'm very, very honest and transparent about that kind of stuff. And just because you can do something or you can figure it out, doesn't mean that it's the best decision for yourself or your business or your business's profitability. It's usually. Not great for your profitability because you're stepping outside of your standard, quote unquote comfort zone of your business, or, you know, your standard processes that are rinse and repeat. You've done 'em a million times and maybe this thing you haven't done in a few years, but you know, you could do it, but then you have to reacquaint yourself with it and do hours of research and are you billing for that? So it's just a, it's a slippery slope, like you said. Yeah, yeah. I, it's, and especially with technology, the way it changes so fast, like, yes, I've, I've teched myself out of services that I used to do because it's just such a different, like social media, I always refer that out to my people that I are in my creative circle because I can't touch it with a 10 foot pole. I don't understand any of it anymore. I, it used to be not a big deal to do. You just had to have the strategy and create the content, but now it's, you know, it's a beast or SEO is changing daily because of AI and how they're scraping sites and just under. You know, it's just, I think as technology's gotten more complicated, and if you're in a service that relies on technology, it's so more important than ever that you stay focused on what it is that you really love doing and be absolutely the expert on that. Absolutely. Even if it's tiny, because it, it's almost impossible now to offer all of these services with, with AI and, and the gen, the quick overturn of technology. And there's such power in developing partnerships too, like referral partners like that. Oh yeah. I mean, you and I both have a pretty extensive network of folks that, you know, we'll refer out social media or design things that, you know, I, I won't take on myself, but I'm like, I've got someone for that. And same way, you know, likewise, if that person doesn't do systems or CRMs or email marketing, things like that, they'll refer it back my way. And I think there's also a lot of power in community as an entrepreneur. And I think it's, it's something that's often overlooked. And I think, you know, especially, that's one thing with, you know, shifting to remote work. It's a little bit harder, I think, sometimes to find your people initially. Yeah. I mean, once you find them, you're good. But it takes, takes a little bit of a different approach now to kind of find that, that support group. And you know, I find so much peace in knowing that I have so many different people that I could talk a contract through or a proposal through, or I could say, Hey, I'm having this struggle in my business. Have you ever been through that? And maybe they have and they have tactical advice or maybe they haven't and they just can understand and they can just kind of hold that space for me and talk through how, you know, the emotion ties into a particular situation. And then also how, like I said, the tactical business part ties into that and. I think we've found just a really great group of people to do that with and it's something that I really appreciate and that really helps me push forward as an entrepreneur. So I definitely recommend to new entrepreneurs and existing entrepreneurs also, um, to really put yourself out of your comfort zone a little bit, to find that group of people. And there's so many different communities available, you know, and you really just have to find the ones that, that work best for you. Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, you know, you can't do anything in a vacuum and being an entrepreneur is such a kind of unique thing. Mm-hmm. Usually in your circle of friends and family and acquaintances.'cause they don't, it's kind of rare that you have like a ton of entrepreneurs in your, in your circle, so, you know. I will often get frustrated because, you know, somebody that's close to me won't understand, you know, I'm not done at a certain time or yeah, you know, I'm taking on something new or, well, why is it that you're at a mall on a Tuesday with your daughter? Like, you know, it's just a different lifestyle. So finding people that are experiencing that and have maybe walked in those shoes a little bit longer, um, to help guide you a little bit and, and help you with the emotional parts of that. Um, 'cause there it's so layered. There are so many things that go with it. Yeah. It's, it's, uh, one funny one that I always refer back to and I'm talking to friends who are in corporate or other. Non entrepreneurial kind of situations. People always say, well, why can't you just take off? You're your own boss. You don't have to ask anyone. You can just take off who's making money you want. And I always say like, I call it PTO, but it's really not PTO. It's more like you PTO on page time. And that's always really hard for other people to like wrap their head around. They're like, oh, well, like you don't have to answer to anyone. You don't have to ask anyone. And I'm like, well, I have to answer to 52 different people. Yeah. I'm like, yes and no. I have to answer to all my clients. Right. You know, the, the tough part that when you're working in such a lean team, and you know, it is like me as the, as the full-time person running the business, the work doesn't go anywhere. And I know you have that challenge too. When you take off the work's there, you still have to do the work. You're just moving it. So I always think that's, um, just one that I come across so often where people are just like, oh, but that's awesome. You can take off whenever you want. And I'm like, mm-hmm. Kinda, and that's a choice too, anyway. Yes, I know. Yeah, yeah. No, people don't get that. But that's a choice too, is, you know, I think a, a message that we often hear is like, scale, scale, scale. And, mm, I never wanted to, and I always thought like there was maybe something wrong with me. And I, I, initially that was the goal and the plan, and I had a bunch of employees. We were all in the one room, and I absolutely hated it. And I think, you know, choosing your business model in a way that feels good to you is what you should do, not what you hear. Absolutely. Yeah. Somebody saying on Instagram, you know, don't hire if you don't have to. Um, it's, it's a whole other job having a team. Um, you know, I like the way my business is structured because mm-hmm. If I wanna take a step back, I can either delegate more or take less work. Right. And that works great for my lifestyle and, and how I like to structure my business right now. But, you know, if I had, or when I had a whole bunch of full-time employees, it was, it was such pressure that I just didn't want. Mm-hmm. I also wanted to give them so much and give them growth and learning and I'm just not in a place in my life right now where I wanna do any of that anymore. So, yeah. Um, I just don't and I love that and that's so fair. And that's something that I also talk about with clients a lot. There's kind of those two paths you could go down, right? Mm-hmm. There is the scale. Big team, million dollar rev, million dollar plus revenue. I want to grow as rapidly as I can and that's valid. An exit that That's a path. Yeah, that an exit, right? That's a path. And there's this other path though, that I think, like you said, is not really talked about as much and not maybe pursued as openly of Right. You know, for me.'cause there's a little bit of judgment around it. Yeah. You know, people ask me all the time, Christina, you're doing so well with your business, when are you gonna hire someone? And I'm like, I'm never hiring someone. And people are absolutely baffled by that. And they're like, what do you mean? I was like, well, I have plenty of friends who are consultants and experts in their space where if I need to refer something out within my own business, I'll hire a consultant. And I love working with other consultants and solopreneurs and entrepreneurs because they work similarly to me. Right? They're working in a similar fashion and, you know, they have similar drive and ambition and things like that. And, you know, it's, it's just a totally different path that you can go down. And then when you, when you talk about, again, like if you bring it back to profitability, salaries are a huge, huge, huge expense. And you're talking and you have to go up every year. And, and it's not just salaries, it's the benefits that come with salaries. You know, it's the insurance, it's the 401k match. It's all of these things that I just am not looking for. Right, right. I don't, I don't want to be responsible for putting, you know, food on someone else's table right now. It's enough to be responsible for putting it on my table. Yeah. And it's just not something that I see myself taking on. I, you know, still get to interact with a lot of teams through the work that I do with my clients, and that's enough for me. And that's just all that I'm looking for right now. And I think a lot of people, like you said, you know, don't think that that's a valid path. I think that you have to scale and you have to exit. But for me, I'm not looking for a big exit. I'm just looking to, you know, maintain my lifestyle and maintain the life that I've built here and provide a healthy and comfortable life for my family. That's it. Yeah. That's all I need for, I don't to hit seven figures in my lifetime. That's fine. No. Like, it's, it's just not something that is a priority for me. And like I said, if it is power to you, still a valid path and yeah. You know, still can bring joy and success to those people who are looking for that. I just think that this other path isn't really talked about as often and you know, I like to bring attention to that and I love working with people who are also pursuing that because it brings that kind of shared, again, shared value and shared experience where I feel like I can really help those clients. Oh yeah. I mean, you see those memes where like somebody's like, oh, I'm having a team meeting with myself. If you see myself talking to myself, like there's nothing, the ones that are like, it's me and the team, I'll send this to the team. And it's like the team, you Right. You know, if your goal is to have a certain amount of revenue or, or you know, certain amount to support your family or yourself or mm-hmm. Your lifestyle and you're hitting that, then what's, where's. Where's the judgment around it? Like I've seen, you know, I work very intimately with a lot of my clients and I see their profitability and I'm like, damn, I, I mean this is a big company. I'm doing better than that. CEO. Like, yeah. It's really, and that guy is like killing himself. It's crazy. Yeah. You, we, we have some of the weeks where, you know, I've had 'em, and I know you've had 'em where you are working 40 plus hours. Absolutely. It's a little bit of a grind and it's an ebb and flow in that sense too. Yeah. But the weeks where you don't have that and where you can go for a walk in the middle of the day where you can take the dog to the vet and not have to worry about it, or you can take a sick day because you don't feel good. Yeah. And you know, that's what makes it all worth it for me, you know? Yeah. I, I think that revenue, and even when you're talking about corporate jobs too, when you're talking about salary, like monetary salary, it's just a piece of compensation. Right. And it totally depends on where you're at in life and what you value. For me, when I launched Nurture, I needed, and I still need flexibility. Yeah. I need flexibility in my schedule because, you know, I feel a million times better and better than I ever thought that I could feel healthier than I ever thought that I could feel. However, I need to maintain that. Right. And I need to be able to still, you know, I, I can't pursue really like high stress, high pressure situations because it flares up my conditions. I need to be able to, if something happened, I need to go to a doctor immediately. Like some things require urgency that could flare up in my conditions. That, that's what's most important to me. I, I kind of shifted. Yeah. And my priority shifted where my priority was my career and it was climbing that ladder and then I was pushing health down and down and down. And now health, you know, was reprioritized and I am not willing to bend on that. Yeah. And again, that's just a personal value, personal decision. Um. You know, all kinds of different priorities for all kinds of different reasons, but that's how some people I've decided to build my business. Yeah. Some people have a vision of the type of house they wanna live in and the cars they wanna drive and Sure. That's totally, totally valid. Mm-hmm. I think it's, it's really whatever's important to you and, and if you can achieve that in the way that makes you feel fulfilled and happy and mm-hmm. You know, successful and whatever that looks like, go do that. Absolutely. No shame. Yeah. Like even Michael, when he was my husband, when he was looking at making a job move, he had been headhunted for a position that looked very attractive. Mm-hmm. Financially it was like, that's a big pay jump. But then he did the math on, 'cause he's a numbers guy and he did the math on the amount of travel that they were expecting him to do. Yes, and the amount of vacation time they gave and the amount of time commuting. And at the end of the day, it was not a pay raise at all, which shocked me. Yeah. I was like, wow. You know? But because he took into account his lifestyle and how he wanted to live it and how you know that all that time is time. It's your time. Yeah. And it's, it's so funny you mentioned that, Kendra, because we went through a very, very, very similar situation when Mark was job hunting a few years ago where it was the same thing. It was a very attractive salary jump, and it was this big opportunity with a big brand. And we looked at the travel, and the travel was gnarly. It was a lot of travel, a lot of responsibilities, you know, all of the things. And he ended up not pursuing that and pursuing a totally different route, um, that he's very, very happy in. And, uh, if we would have gone down that path with the bigger salary and all of that. It was right before I got sick. There's no way that he would've been able to, he wouldn't have been able to travel. I needed him here to, he was my caregiver at the time. So it's something that had he chased that, you know, big monetary gain, it wouldn't have worked out. And I think that's actually something to say for, for us in our businesses too, that we've definitely talked about. Sometimes that big opportunity or big contract comes your way and it's a lot, it's a lot of maybe responsibility or it's pushing on your boundaries. You know, it's requiring you to be available when you're not really available, or turnaround times that you're not really comfortable with, and it's not always the right decision. There's just so much more to look at when you look at opportunities holistically like that, that it's just, it's funny that you mention that because we just went through such a similar, similar thing a few years ago as well. It's wild. I mean, you have to also think that a yes to something is a no to something else, and you may not even know what that No. Is. Absolutely. Yeah. The, what was the other thing? Um, that just, you said something and I was like, oh yeah, that, oh, I don't take phone calls after three, I mean, as best as I can. Mm-hmm. I do not, I kind of try to shut the day down by three. I do the same thing. I have a block on my calendar that says shut down routine. Yeah. Because my kids come home from s well, one of my kids come home from school. And, um, my other one's in college now, but, you know, it's just, it.

My brain also doesn't work after 3: 49:44

00 PM If I have to do like heavy brain work, I have to do it in the morning. Otherwise, I am not at my best. I'm the same way. Yeah, and that's another really good thing to think about too is like positioning or structuring your business in a way where you're getting your best work done at a certain time. And even if that means that like, you know, Tuesdays are a really stressful day for you, for family reasons, or whatever it is, the work Tuesdays, like you can put these boundaries on your business. I think thinking outside the box as far as both your service line and how you're providing it is totally, totally valid and should be looked at. Absolutely. You should adapt. The best way you work is how you should adapt your schedule. And that's always something I advise clients and and other entrepreneurs too, you know, if you like. I'm also a morning girl.

I do my best work from like eight to 10: 50:37

00 AM and those are my deep focus blocks. You know, that's when I'm not taking client calls, I am just cranking out work and, you know, 3:00 PM that's not my best time. So I'm not getting on a client call or, you know, reviewing a big deck or strategy or something, or trying to, uh, execute a workflow. I've joked around with Mark that I'm not allowed to touch anything in HubSpot

after 3: 50:59

00 PM because I'll start trying to pressure myself to finish a workflow or, or finish this or, or just do this report really quick and then I mess it up because it's not a good time for me because by then my brain is done. It doesn't wanna work anymore.

That 3: 51:15

00 PM slump that people, you know, would typically like go get a coffee or something like that. I stopped working. Where's my Celsius? Yeah.

And, and the 3: 51:24

00 PM Celsius is dangerous as you know, because you'll be up all night and I have tried to do that. I, you know, have tried to power through things like that and just brute force it, and it just never yields the results that you're looking for. And I'd rather get up that hour early and end my day, an hour, uh, you know, an hour earlier.'cause that's what works for me. And I also know plenty of people who are the opposite. They're like, I do my best work seven to 10:00 PM And to me I'm like, that's wild. But to them, they're like, I can't believe that you log on before 9:00 AM. Like they're mind blown by the reverse. Well, and that's changed for me over my life. So when I was freshly divorced and, and my daughter was itty bitty, or even when I was pregnant with her, I worked through the night sometimes because she'd be up. Mm-hmm. And then I was exhausted during the day because she was up all night. So like, I think that's another huge benefit to having your own business is absolutely like, again, as your life changes, you can change. And I also was like more of a night owl then now, like if I. Have anything

that starts at 8: 52:29

00 PM I'm not there. That's not happening. I'm with you. I used to be a night owl too. In college. I'd study all night. I'd stay up till two in the morning studying, doing papers and season and things like that. But now you are hard pressed to see me out.

Pest 9: 52:46

00 PM Yeah. No, I need my eight hours, hours. That's, I gotta sleep. Yeah, I know. But I do. I wake up at five 30. Me too. I get my daughter off to school and then everyone gets outta my house and I have all this beautiful, quiet with the cats to just get my head on straight, get my morning routine done and get into my work. So yeah, it's definitely changed over over time. It's been interesting to watch that happen. Yeah, that one was actually a pretty big shift when we moved out here. So like in New York, that was kind of a night owl, which makes sense.'cause New York has that like nighttime, that vibe, night life. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, yeah, you're out getting dinner after with all of your friends from work and having a drink or have, you know, whatever it is. And moving to Colorado, it is a morning state.

Because you're up at 5: 53:33

00 AM 6:00 AM to get to the trailhead because you wanna hike before the afternoon thunderstorms roll in. Or you wanna take a really long hike that, you know, you don't wanna be out when it's blaring heat in the middle of August at 2:00 PM And that's been a big lifestyle shift for us just as we've kind of adapted to this new life here actually when we get up. And the, the timing of our day has shifted pretty dramatically from when we moved from New York. Yeah. And I, again, that hustle culture. I have heard so many times where some of my clients would judge someone for not working typical hours. I mean, granted, if you don't put that out there and you're not transparent about that, like that's not the best. Mm-hmm. Definitely let people know like, these are my working hours. Put your boundaries out there right away. Put them in your contracts, you know, your communication proposals, websites, all of it. Absolutely. Don't text me, I don't exist outside of this computer. No, but you know, I've, I've seen the judgment come from somebody on a corporate side looking at someone else who has an alternative business style and is like, that's not, you know, professional and blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. And meanwhile, like it actually can be completely professional as long as you make sure that everyone is aware of it. Absolutely. You just have to be transparent, be honest. And again, those clients that, that doesn't work for them. That's okay. That's not your client, right? There's plenty of work to go around. There's plenty of clients to go around and you'll find people that fit with your specific boundaries and communication style and things like that, and then you'll find the power and saying no to those people who are not aligned for you. How many times have you talked to a client who is so perfectly aligned? They're like, oh my God, I can't stand that. That's great that you do it this way'cause there's somebody for everybody. Absolutely. I've talked to so many people like that and those are my favorite kind of clients. And I've had, those are my longstanding clients. Those are clients that I've retained since Nurture started, or since their contract started. They haven't turned over. You know, we have a very, very, very low turnover rate. Most clients stay, stay with us that end up, you know, doing work with us unless their project like concludes. And it's not that, that style of contract, but I've, I've never honestly had an issue finding the right clients. Sometimes it takes some patience and you know, in the beginning it's definitely. You know, you're sweating a little, the first, the first few months when your revenue's a a zero and you're, you're trying to build it up, but you build it up and you keep at it and you just are persistent and work hard and that, that will get you where you need to go. Like things will pick up and all of a sudden you have this moment of like, oh my goodness, it's working. Yeah, it's working. Yeah. Every like, it, it's happening and things have taken off. I remember sitting at my desk in my rental house and just thinking to myself, someday I'm not gonna have to pick up the phone and cold call.'cause that's how I started. I was like cold, cold calling and trying to think outside the box of like where I could find my clients and, and it worked. But eventually, you know what Christina is, what you're saying is, is so true. If you just do a really, really good job and mm-hmm. Treat your clients with respect and a lot of care, they're gonna refer you. And so a hundred percent. If you had five clients this year that you made super happy, so much so that they can't wait to refer you because now they feel like they're giving their connection a huge gift and value in their eyes, they're gonna refer you. Absolutely. And you know, something that we're very proud of at Nurture too, is that we have not spent a single dollar on advertising. Every single client that has come through has come through from referrals and from those exact situations where we did really great work and we let that, you know, represent itself. We, we have happy clients who refer us to all of their clients or their friends or colleagues, things like that. And we have not ran a single advertisement. Everything has been word of mouth. And if your ideal client, right, who's perfect for you is referring you out to somebody that they're connected to, you would think that they're probably also your ideal client. Absolutely. My referrals are always the absolute best fit clients because they're coming from that same network and that same, you know, perspective of that original client. And, you know, something i, I share with my clients often too is that, you know, my, my success hinges on their success when, when their business is succeeding, my business is succeeding. And it's this like really beautiful like, kind of like flywheel effect where, you know, their growth fuels my growth and then my growth fuels their growth further. And it's just this constant spin of, you know, really helping lift each other up both through, like I said, through that kind of community aspect of it. And then through the pure grit, technical aspect of improving their business operations, improving their profitability, improving their capacity to take on more clients or to their new customers, giving them access to data so they can make data-driven decisions that, you know, boost whatever goal that they're going for. Yeah. And when you are. Providing service like that for so long, you eventually get to a place where you know, they're not just a client, they're a relationship. Absolutely. I just find that that's, because that's something I've been judged for in the past, that you can't get close to your clients like that. But I love my clients. I love these people. They're not clients, they're people. I mean, I've, I know had some for the longevity of my, my business 20 years and you can't help but know them in such a personal way, but also you can serve them better when you can think like them. Yes. When you know exactly. It's like, you know what your best friend wants for Christmas, you know, it's the same thing. You know exactly what this client needs and you cannot wait to tell them about it. And it's such an easy win too. Yeah. It's, it's really nice to really care about your clients and, you know, you, you would make an assumption that everybody cares about their clients in that way, but I've actually found that. That is not always the case, and that it really sets you apart. So also, if you're an entrepreneur who's providing a service like that and you really care and have that style of partnership, like my clients are really, they're my partners. They're not just a client. They're my partners, and that's something that you should promote. Because that's as much as you think. It's not a usp. It's a usp. Absolutely. I mean, I've, I've, I, I've had clients that, you know, have gone through sickness, have gone through things in their families and, you know, likewise. And they've been there for me and I've been there for them, like way beyond a business relationship. And that's not everybody, but. I care about each client that way for the same reason. I want them to be successful. I want to help fuel their growth. It makes my business better, and it makes just me feel better as a person too, that I could contribute to something in someone else's company. That helps, you know, especially when it's a corporate, like a mid-size, you are helping everybody there. Yeah. Which is so cool. No, it's, it's so fun. One of my favorite things is going into a mid-size company, or even some boutique companies too, and one of my favorite things to do for the team is to get them outta spreadsheets. That is my favorite opportunity. When someone comes to me and they're like, so I'm managing my CRM. My CRM is a Google sheet, and I'm like, no. Oh. What do you mean? Let's get you into some software that is going to be so much more powerful and not only more powerful from the business standpoint, but it makes such a positive impact on the day to day for those teams. And I love empowering teams to just have a less stressful day to day. So, you know, we talk a lot about the impact on business owners because they're typically who I'm interfacing with directly. Um, I interface with some teams, but I would say it's most often probably similar for you. It's most often the business owner or the marketing leader or something like that. But I, yeah, definitely a csuite. Yeah. I love being able to help the team on the day to day. Like when they say, Hey, you've made this process so much better for me. I feel so much, you know, more empowered in my work. I feel less stressed. I'm able to create something more beautiful because I'm not stressed out. Like that kind of stuff is just really what it's all about, you know? Yeah. You see their confidence grow as a team member. Yep. You see them step up. I mean, it's just so cool when you can help guide and, and your, your involvement helps another, you know, 50 people feel better about themselves in some way. Absolutely. It's just cool. Well, Christina, I just want everyone to know where they can find you. Yeah. If you are on a team right now, or you're a business owner who's looking to streamline their operations or get some marketing systems set up in softwares like Clickup and like HubSpot, I would love to talk to you and see how I can help your team get rid of that. Overwhelmed feeling that overcapacity feeling. And just really bring a breath of fresh air to your business and empower your teams to really focus on what matters to them and what's important to them. Build out systems and processes that do all the backend work for you. So anyone who's maybe feeling a little overwhelmed or just also looking to maybe scale or increase their profitability, they're ready to take on that next chapter in their business and, you know, start pushing things a little bit past the spreadsheets or maybe a simple system that's ready to go, you know, into enterprise level. Again, I'd love to talk to you. You can find us on our website on nurture productivity com, or you're more than welcome to email directly. My email is Christina at nurture productivity do com or shoot us a DM on any of our, our social channels. And we'll have all your links in the show notes as well. Basically, if you are listening to this and you work for someone that is on Google spreadsheets, on on spreadsheets, or you are and that's your business call Christina, get in touch. Absolutely. I promise you we'll get back hours and hours and hours of time. It's incredible. Well, thank you so, so much for sharing your story and I just think you're, you're such an inspiration to anyone who is not sure they can do this and they can make choices that are going to make their lives the best they can be.'cause you're living proof that it's possible. Well, thank you so much and thank you for giving me the platform to share my story and for having me. Well, we will be back next week with another episode and I will see you all soon.